Looking to Purchse a P 323

[jsiska]

Hello all I am currently considering buying a local Pearson 323 I was looking at other boats and this one caught my eye so I took a look. Looks Very well built I like the shoal draft and low mast height as well as deck layout. Very nice cockpit and interior room. The boat I am consider is here in Chicago. If anyone has time to look at the survey here
http://www.sailboatsalesco.com/pdfs/breathsurvey.pdf  I would like your input.

The boat needs all new instruments a water heater, a lot of bright work and a new main any suggestion on best mainsail for these boats I have read loose footed full batten main? Also how is the Volvo MD 11? Any other info on inspecting these P323 boats would be great as well. I currently own an Ericson 27 which is a great boat we are just looking for something bigger for extended cruising.

Thanks

John

[selene]

I like your choice of boat :-)

From the description I think the survey (2010) was not as thorough as I would like to see, and appeared slightly biased.  I was bothered by numerous spelling mistakes;  It was also very interesting to see the keel reported as external, with keel bolts; every model I am aware of has internal (encapsulated) keel; from the photos it looks like mine.

The photos and description do not appear to support the assertion of it reflecting "the care of a conscientious crew"; rather, I saw signs of neglect...how long has she been shrinkwrapped - or rather, how long since she was regularly sailed?  As you may know, of things have not been used for a while, they tend to age...as shrinkwrapped, why is there still moisture readings at base of stanchions?

The engine is very common, but seems like a lot of hours; I would definitely ask around, and get it checked, as a new engine is expensive. The leak in the salon is bothersome, not because it is difficult to fix - it should be straightforward - but because it could indicate neglect. The old datamarine instruments may be okay - I still use them, and a company (DMI) can repair and refurbish for less than replacing them all. Water heater - easy to replace, my original one still works fine - or rather did hen I replaced the heating element.  BTW, if you do replace it, set it up so the engine coolant circulates into the water heater - so the engine heats it up when cruising - nice to have.

The real question is how much time and money are you willing to put in to get her to the condition you want.  The P323 is a solid, well-build boat, so the "foundations" are probably solid; if the key expensive systems (engine, mast/rigging,no sodden core)  are sound, other items are generally very accessible and relatively inexpensive to fix.  If you can negotiate the right price, and have the budget for repairs, I would strongly suggest you get your own surveyor to do an unwrapped survey and sea-trial.

BTW, I have a full-batton loose footed main and love it.

[jsiska]

Thanks for the reply. I was also suspect to the survey considering it was part of the brokers listing, a second opinion is always good. The boat is currently not shrink wrapped however I agree with the neglect issues. Time for more investigation.

[selene]

Last thought in this...the way I think about pricing is this: A pristine P323, new engine (<200hrs), new sails (<5yrs), newish electronics, new standing rigging, beautiful teak, etc etc may be worth $30K.  Well maintained, but aging a bit, mid-$20s.  In need of a lot of work, maybe $10K (well, I did see one with no engine a while back for $9K!)

When you reflect on this, it sort of makes sense.  A new engine installed by a boatyard is probably $10K; which I think of new sails, rigging, electronics, etc there is probably another $10-$20Kor more in that. So one approach to determine a fair value could be to work out how far from perfect she is, and quantify those factors to reach a fair purchase price. Need a new engine? Lop off, say $8K.  New sails? another $6k. etc.

In the case of a well-built boat such as the P323, there probably aren't many bad boats - just bad prices.  Get one at the right price, invest some money, and you will get a roomy, well-designed, sea-kindly coastal cruiser, better built and stronger than many more modern equivalents (not that I am biased..).

[Dulcinea]

John:
Well, you won't find many on this list who don't think you're on the right track with a 323.  I am a Pearson junkie, having owned three now.  They are well-built old boats varying much at this point by the quality of the care and attention (read time and money) devoted to them in the past.  They're easy to fall in love with and I hope you haven't with this one.  If you have, excuse the following: 

One main question I have is: Did you pick this surveyor or did the yard, broker, owner or anyone else?  ....or was this the infamous "recent survey available"?  Given the December 2010 date of the survey it begs more questions than it answers.  In fairness to the surveyor, you can only do so much while the boat is shrink wrapped and without sea trial.  For that reason alone I would tell you not to buy this boat, at least not yet and certainly not for $23,000.  You don't have nearly enough information.  Frankly, nothing in the pictures would indicate to me that the boat has been well-maintained.  In fact, it looks like it's been shrink wrapped and neglected for quite awhile. 

Other than the constraints on the surveyor mentioned above, there are some significant areas for concern.  As a matter of fact, if you're emotionally committed to this boat, or if you have even already bought it, I'd pick a different NAMS or SAMS surveyor in your area off their websites and pay for a proper survey of the vessel AND be present for the survey, which I assume you were not at this one.   This surveyor came up with a total of eight observations, five of which were missing pins, bad bulbs or gel coat cracks.  Further his comments on hull and deck moisture were "none of significant value".  I agree in that "none" as far as moisture would certainly be of significant value, but you should want to know what those readings are and where moisture was found.  He was WAY too vague here.  Typically around the base of stanchions or anywhere else on deck where a screw penetrates the surface should be tested.  A couple of other observations, one mentioned by Selene:  1) If you're a surveyor, the difference between external ballast hung with keel bolts and showing a visible keel/hull joint and encapsulated ballast is un-missable and 2) the surveyor noted that the "flame arrestor" on your diesel engine appeared to be serviceable.  Both of these observations are probably the result of a guy trying to use a previous survey to cut and paste information to save time and effort.  Sloppy.  Most competent surveyors are meticulous people.  In my opinion, all-in-all, the survey is worthless in terms of thoroughness and reliaibility.  Without a real survey, I would not pay $2300 for this boat, much less $23,000.  Looks like a $5K project boat to me. 
FWIW
Dulcinea

[Wind Whisper]

I don't claim to be an expert on boats or the like .  . .but here is my experience . .this spring I purchased a P323 in Muskegon that had set on the hard for some 16 years . .a year ago the asking price was like that of the boat you are investigating in Chicago . .then it was discounted to "get it sold" I paid  $Xk . . The boat was in better shape than what I would define as a project boat and yet it has taken alot of work since spring to bring the boat back to most of its former glory . .Unfortunately in Michigan there are many many boats available in most price ranges . .and with the temperature hitting 31 degrees last night I suspect that the prices on local boats may well dip further . . I feel fortunate to have been able to take advantage of the great value I came across . .I enjoy being able to put sweat equity into something . .but not all folks can afford that kind of time . .from what I am visioning of the Chicago boat it is in roughly the same condition as I started with and so with that in mind I would feel that the value of the boat should be more in line with the price as well . .

[Ed Sakowicz]

I would hire my own survey or any boat I wanted to purchase, as I did with my P323 over 20 years ago. It is a great idea to be there for the survey so things can be explained to you. This survey was done for the current owner to make the boat look good for a sale. Your survey would tell you if you are getting into trouble, but most importantly, I would not buy a boat without a test sail to see if everything was in working order. When I purchased my boat, the original jib furler has bad bearings, so I needed to replace it. that was also reported in the survey. If the boat has been on hard ground for several years, who knows what is growing in the fuel tank. That would need to be drained and refilled to keep the fuel filters from getting plugged up as starve the engine. Sea Trial is important to see the working condition of the sails as well.

I hope it works out for you. I have never felt safer on a boat than I do on my 323.

Regards,
Ed