Pearson Yachts Forum
General Category - Pearson Owners and Enthusiasts => Boat Handling => Topic started by: jwstahl on January 25, 2014, 10:50:10 AM
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Hello,
I am seriously considering purchasing a well-maintained 1982 P323. I've been a one-design racer for many years, but I'm retiring in a few months and will finally have time to do some cruising in LI Sound & Narragansett Bay. I have concerns about the P323's ability in light air, which is common around here in the summer. Also, my prospective P323 does not have lines led aft - I expect to be single-handing a fair amount, and I wonder what experienced owners think about this. Finally, there are no inboard jib leads - wouldn't they help sailing this boat upwind?
Thanks in advance for any advice.
John
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Hi John,
Welcome to the forum - you'll probably get totally subjective feedback here!
I think when evaluating a P323 you need to be aware of what she is, and what she ain't. The P323 is a well-built, well-designed, moderately heavy coastal cruiser. Her weight and design makes for a seakindly movement which inspires confidence in heavy wind/weather. She is also surprisingly roomy for her size and age. However, these characteristics means she is no racer. As I am sure you know, in a boat it's all about tradeoffs.
Light air - there was another thread about that, can't find it for now - well, the P323 weighs ~13klbs, so she is heavy compared to many modern boats, and the speed will depend on your sail selection. Under 5 knot wind is a challenge - she won't make her own airflow like some boats near me! But as you get above 5 knots, I find she moves along fine - but perhaps I am patient?
Lines aft - well, that is a very subjective debate. Some P323 have their lines led aft, some don't. Some people think it is a big deal, others prefer the simplicity of lines forward. Personally I am wandering around the bow often enough that it is no big deal (I often singlehand). And I appreciate simplicity and ease of hauling on lines.
Upwind performance - well, if there is one thing which lets the boat down, it is upwind performance. Two factors come into play (IMHO) - the position of the jib leads/cars, and the shallow keel. Consequently, she does not point as well as, say, a modern Catalina, however hard I try. I take part in the local "beer can" races, and broad reach/running we move very well, and can keep up with or beat many modern boats of a similar size. But if we have to beat..well, it's not pretty, I must be honest.
As I said upfront, that's the penalty you pay for a stronger rig - and an older design. Sometimes it's a pain - other times it comes in useful, like when a month or so we went in to an anchorage and settled down, wondering why the other boats were waiting...an extra 2' on the keel helped them get there faster, but they had to wait for more tide to get in!
Have a look around this site, there have been other questions from potential owners; also have a look at http://www.rollinscs.com/boatpages/choosepage.htm and http://www.chessie.com/boat/, both of whom have excellent sites on their 323s, and participate in this group.
Good luck!
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Hi John,
I think Selene's comments about the 323 and light air sailing are spot on. I would add that the 3-blade cruising prop is not going to help if light air sailing is the objective.
As for windward performance I think his first comment carries the day: she's a moderately heavy coastal cruiser...roomy and well built. And I would add that she has a shoal draft that helps greatly in poking around shallow bays, but it does have a downside when going to weather. A comparison to a boat with a deep fin keel, a spade rudder, and of light displacement going to weather is a bit of an apples/oranges comparison. In my experience, the 323 will underperform the fin/spade/light boat in lighter air but as the sea state changes the 323 can drive through seas that knock a lighter boat all around. At some point neither boat is sailing well and the fun meter starts to drop. As Selene pointed out, reaching or downwind the 323 holds her own quite well.
With my sails (120 percent jib and 95 percent jib) the ideal conditions are in the 8 to 20 knot range. At the lower end of this range the larger head sail really shines but she still is no race boat (especially with the cruising prop). I think others on this site sail regularly with larger headsails and I hope that they add their thoughts here for your consideration.
As the breeze gets into the 17 to 20 knot range my smaller headsail and a reef can greatly improve both performance and enjoyment. Going to weather I believe that the shoal draft is a significant contributor to leeway...more so than sheeting angles. I have found that reefing early, limiting heel, and not sailing too high (pinching) can all improve windward VMG for the 323.
Possibly the most important factor in evaluating the boat is to clearly define for yourself your likely cruising ground, associated wind and sea state, and current challenges. If you need shoal draft (and don't want a centerboard boat) the 323 can answer quite nicely. If your goal is coastal cruising in a 32-foot boat, the 323 really shines. If you need to start each sail by heading to weather or against a current in light air, the calculus is different.
You didn't mention your price range, but I think the 323 offers exceptional value in a coastal cruiser. As you will soon see, those of us on this site who sail the 323 regularly have developed an understanding of what she can do well and what she can't. And with that understanding comes refined expectations. I think that is probably true for any boat. Good luck in your search!
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John,
I forgot to add my 2 cents about lines led to the cockpit. When I bought my 323 leading the lines to the cockpit was one of the first changes that I was going to make. But then I started sailing her as she was (slab reefing at the mast) and learned that it was not hard to do at all. This boat has a relatively small main, a gentle manner and, when one heaves-to, she bobs along quite comfortably. I have a pad eye at the base of the mast on the aft side and when reefing in high wind and high waves I wear a harness, clip in, and simply make myself comfortable on the cabin top as I tie in the reef. Having good topping lift control from the mast is a key to this approach. In lighter air and moderate sea state I dispense with heaving to and simply ease the main enough to lower the sail while the jib and auto pilot keep her moving.
If you want to fly a spinnaker without a dodger, lines led aft can allow one to drop the spinnaker down the companionway without going forward. I don't fly a spinnaker and I do have a dodger so I have never experimented with this approach.
I am sure you will get lots of opinions about this question but my experience led me away from this rigging approach.
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<sigh> Wish I was as eloquent as Richard! But he gave me another reminder - an autopilot is a great thing to have, I'd say almost indispensable if you want to solo. Mine is electrical (hydraulic) and installed below decks (out of the elements and unobtrusive). You mentioned you sailed a one-designer - which implies racing; clearly and autopilot isn't something often seen on racing boats, but for this type of sailing it makes life so much easier...
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Well! Thanks very much for all the instructive replies - I must admit I didn't expect so much thoughtful advice so quickly. I've read a few other threads on this site since my original post, and I see that this is an extremely helpful forum - another advantage to buying a P323 that I did not appreciate.
Yes, the boat has an autopilot, as well as helm-mounted chartplotter w/integrated radar (lots of fog here,) both of which I think are essential for single-handing in this area. Electrical wiring was completely re-done within the past 4 years and a recent survey is quite positive.
The tip about the seakindly motion is important - I suppose I could try the halyards, reefing system, vang, outhaul, etc. as they are, and lead lines aft later if I thought it necessary. Might save some money, and increase cocktail cruise suntanning space. The harness belay padeye is a great piece of advice - thanks.
Has anyone tried a 2-bladed fixed prop on a p323? My prospective boat has a Volvo MD11C 23hp diesel, which may be slightly undersized using the 2 hp/1000lb rule. Anyway, aligning a 2-bladed prop vertically might help performance under sail (old pre-folding-prop racing procedure.)
I won't be racing this boat seriously - I've got my one-design for that - but a non-responsive boat is no fun for me. New England base PHRF for this boat is 174, comparable to an Ericson 32 and quite a bit quicker than a Cape Dory 31. Do folks find these estimates accurate?
Will the P323 tack through 90 degrees or less?
Lots of questions. I may be pushing my welcome. Anyway, thanks for any consideration and advice.
John
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My boat has the Volvo MD11C. We have been caught is some pretty nasty storms both inshore and 50 miles out. It has never had a problem pushing the boat through any weather at hull speed. Keeping the passages around the cylinders cleaned is a whole different story.
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Will the P323 tack through 90 degrees or less?
I hope others chime in with their answers to this question. The simple answer from me with my boat, sails, prop, and sailing skill (or lack thereof), is no. At 50 to 60 degrees apparent I can make good progress all day long in breezes above about 8 knots. As the wind speed increases I can usually point higher but as I approach 48 to 50 apparent I begin to struggle to maintain VMG. I can sometimes sail higher but VMG usually suffers. In a good breeze with little chop I can sometimes get to 45 apparent but most of the time I sail in the range of 50 to 55 apparent. When the breeze gets light I need to fall off to maintain boat speed...it is in these conditions where I think the 3-blade cruising prop is a real liability. On the other hand, in these same conditions I can often "cruise" at 3 to 4 knots with the engine (MD11C) running at idle speed and the 3-blade prop taking big bites to move us along.
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Richard,
Your experiences mimic mine almost exactly. It took me a couple of seasons to learn that the best VMG was at less than the highest the boat could point.
I also found that the boat likes to sail "on her feet", so I tend to reef early. At 15 kts, I put in the first reef on the main, or reduce the (roller furling) jib a little, or both, depending on sea state. At 18 kts wind, with both sails reefed, the boat will still do 6 - 7 kts and the crew is much more comfortable than if we were burying the rail.
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I have the MD 11c with the 17 inch 3 bladed prop. It does dragalot in light air. I ended up puttting in a 15 inch Maxi-Prop feathering prop. It helped alot. the only bad thing is the cost. If you decide to get one, ask for a boat show discount. That will save you two or three hundred. I hate paying full retail for anything. Good luck
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Have the same motor and a 2 blade prop. In 4 to 6 foot seas it will push the boat @ 3 or 4 knots with no sails up. Go for it, I love mine...
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On up wind performance here are my 2 cts worth.
Step:
1 Soda blast the bottom add barrier coat the bottom. I prefer Sea Hawk Tuff Stuff.
2 Sand barrier coat to 60 grit, I have friends that wet sand to 1200 grit, not me, 1 coat of ablative bottom paint.
3. Go sailing, and every 45 days have a diver scrub the bottom.
4. Sails, I have a light 140, heavy 140 tri radial , a light 170 deck sweeper and an asym tri radial chute
5. Match sail selection to current wind conditions, and you will go to windward like a boss.
6. MOST IMPORTANT at end of season repeat step 2
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John,
I'm a new owner, just having bought 'Wanderer' last September. I've been thrilled to own her thus far for many of the reasons already touched on here: roominess for 32', comfortable motion, affordability, and sailing characteristics.
We have a new fully battened main with a stack pack which makes sail handling very very easy. It is also installed with a "strong track" on the mast so the sail goes up with barely having to use the winch and drops right down on herself.
The boat came with an a-symmetric spinnaker which we were just playing around with in some very light airs the other day - 3-8knts. We were able to point pretty high with the chute up in those light winds and saw boat speeds in the 3-4knt range. Not blistering, but pretty damn good for a 6.5 ton boat!
As sun set, the wind filled In a little to a steady 8knts or so and going upwind with the 120ish jib we were hitting those 4knt speeds again.
I bought this boat after getting the advice of a good friend and yacht broker/delivery skipper with 40 years of experience sailing all over the world on all types of boats. He had delivered a 323 15 years ago and it stood out in his mind of all the boats he has been on since as a great sailing and comfortable boat for the size and money.
-Bill
Www.sailingwanderer.com
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Thanks again for all the advice. I'm getting a pretty good picture of the boat's many strengths and few weaknesses.
One final question (which may strike some as weird) - has anyone worked out polars on this boat? I'm not expecting Etchells-type close-windedness, but I know I'll be sailing upwind quite a bit given our prevailing southwesterlies around here.
My wife's uncle once told me that gentlemen don't beat to windward - I guess he had me figured out.
John
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Here is what I have.
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Hi John
I sail out of Mystic, so it looks like you sail the same waters. I sail with a cruising club, with as many as thirty five to forty sailboats, so I have a good sense of how the 323 compares to others. First motoring: The 323 with the md11c and three bladed prop outperforms every other boat in the 30 -34 ft range, particularly in heavy seas. When you are slogging through Rhode Island Sound, powering through waves that are stopping 2 bladed boats in their tracks, you won't mind the drag on days with light wind. After all, this is a cruiser, and if your destination is Block, Nantucket, or Cutty, you want to get there. One other thing: as you already know you will see a lot of tidal current, and sometimes you will be in opposition. With a headwind and oncoming waves the 323 will maintain a minimum of 5 kts at 2000 rpm, which is 80% of max.
As for sailing, I have no problem staying with any of the other production boats of that era up to 34 ft. The only boat that gives me trouble upwind is a 34 Tartan who drafts over 9 ft with a centerboard. Yes, Catalinas have inboard jib tracks, but they need them because they are so beamy. All the other boats develop weather helm much sooner than a 323. However, in calm water under 5 kts you will get spanked. Then suddenly you remember "I'm not a racer, I'm a destination cruiser!" and you fire up the diesel. Also, in your sailing grounds a shoal keel is important. For instance, you could cut straight across the shoals between Edgartown and Nantucket while everyone else is making a long U through the channels.
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Thanks rkfitz. More good info. I'm looking at another boat this week, but I'm definitely leaning toward the P323. Good points about shoal draft and engine power in current.
How do you find the boat's upwind performance in BI, FI, and LI Sounds?
John
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John, rkfitz,
Just want you two to both know you're not alone in these waters.
Me mate and I hail out of Mt. Sinai Harbor on Long Islands north shore, and though the "Great Godsea" berths at Liberty Marina in Jersey (due west across the Hudson from the World Trade Center) he plans to make it eastward to our waters on occasion. I have two other 323's in my harbor alone which I'll make a better effort in reaching out to them to join this site. So by my reckoning that put's at least 6 323's within a day's sailing distance of each other if John grabs a 323.
This means a lot of hands on, face to face sharing, and a possible local 323 sailing group lol.
As for myself, this will be the 2nd season with the 323, so I'm fairly new to the learning curve as well. Even with what little time I got to stretch her legs last season I'm thoroughly happy with the 323, enough to continue to invest heavily with upgrades. Not that she need's it, but I'm a different sailor than the previous owner who had her for 28 years. For example: a COMPLETE conversion of ALL incandescent bulbs (cabin, nav) to LED bulbs, refitting the Primary electrical system to something more modern that includes an ACR as well as Battery Monitoring capabilities, as well as numerous other items to make her "mine". You get the picture, I plan to keep her for the next 28 years. This boat fits the Mate's and I needs to a "T".
So John, if you do make the decision to sail 323 based on the data your getting here, also know there are enough of us around the region to compare boats side to side and share ideas. At least that's my hope.
rfkitz (and any other 323 sailor reading this thread in the NJ, NY, CT, RI, MA regions) add yourself to our Pearson 323 Owners Map (https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zj7d0SU7eA2Y.kOytC5G6zX9s) which can also be located under the Owners registry link. I'm sure you will as well John should you take the 323 plunge.
As I said, plenty others chimed in on performance, I'm hoping us locals can get together on occasion...did someone say "Block"??
Fair winds and following seas.....
"Sub" Ed
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Ed puts it well. i also picked up my 323 last spring. its my first boat, let alone first sailboat. my impression of boat ownership after being on other peoples boats has been that its mostly about dealing with problems, spending lots of money, in exchange for rare opportunities to go out once in a while, followed by a lot more work and money to refill the tank or fix other problems.
So you can imagine my pleasant surprise to find that i seem to have purchased the only used boat in the world with none of these problems!
seriously,
-she's dry as a bone all year in all weather.
-she is such a fuel miser i am constantly checking my fuel indicator to be sure its actually working. i still can't believe how many trips i can take without the need to refill that tank.
-she gets up to 5 knots in reasonable wind easily, and then blows my mind by kicking up to 7 if i'm really paying attention/dont bring in sail quickly enough. i've had one scary moment coming about with too much sail... had her way over, but she popped right back up once i released the main.
-gets along at 4.5 to 5 knots at 2k rpm with no problem.
-tons of room in the cabin.
-tons of room on deck for friends.
-my operating expenses continue to be very low relative to my early expectations.
and best of all, i've spent ALL THIS LONG COLD WINTER either "glory days" reliving last years experiences or reading/planning/talking (my wife would say talking to death) about this years great expectations...
anyway, as you can see, its a good bunch of people here, and i'm really digging being an owner. i can't wait to get her in the water and get under way.
good luck whatever you decide.
Mark